**Morgan:** Have you ever wondered why the saxophone isn't a standard part of an orchestra? Like it was patented in 1846. You will sometimes hear composers add them. And it's very, very cool. But why aren't they standard for anything written in the last century? Folks still consider them a new instrument and sometimes it seems there's not much happening in the innovation of instruments, but in the world of electronics, nothing could be farther from the truth. Today, I'm speaking with a saxophone player about one of the newest innovations in wind instruments, the ewi or electronic wind instrument.
It's still not super new. It was. Invented in the 1970s, but here we are. It may not have a place in the symphony either, but in the world of video game music. It is absolutely everywhere.
**Morgan:** Welcome to zeitgeists radio, where we learn about musical subcultures from people in the scene.
If you love this, be sure to subscribe, rate, and comment. Thanks so much.
My guest today is Joe Newman an arranger and performer out of the Bay area in California. Joe, welcome to Zeitgeist Radio.
**Joe:** Thank you for having me. I'm thrilled to be here.
**Morgan:** Yeah. Thanks for coming on. , So we have a lot of things we could talk about. How would you describe yourself musically?
And then we'll go from there.
**Joe:** Yeah. Um, so I, I'm a musician. I arrange, I perform, I occasionally produce. I. I've been, um, doing, you know, I'm, I'm trained as a jazz musician. Uh, that's what I studied in school. And, uh, you know, I play jazz saxophone and other sorts of woodwinds and, you know, instruments in that space.
Uh, but I've, you know, over the last couple of years really dug deep into the world of video game music, uh, you know, covers of video game tunes, doing a little bit of composing for games and, and, uh, and performing game music live, um, both, you know, at video game events, but also at sort of, um, traditional events.
Music venues with, uh, some, some jazz jam type things. Uh, so it's just been really kind of digging into this music. Cause it's just a wonderful community and, um, wonderful little subculture of the music scene here.
**Morgan:** Yeah. Um, so I asked to stem this a couple of episodes ago as well, and I would love to hear from you.
So a lot of people play video games. Um, but there's that jump between like, Oh, I'm playing the game. To like, oh, the music is like its own thing. So do you remember like what first brought you to video game music as a thing outside the game itself? Versus just playing around, you know.
**Joe:** Well, I think I like probably a lot of nerdy kids who pick up an instrument in like fourth grade, like the very first thing that you do once you learn how to play, you know, hot cross buns is you play like the Mario theme, you know, or you, you know, you just see what, what tunes that you can play.
And, you know, I grew up playing a bunch of video games. And so that's. Um, that was the sort of first, uh, foray into it. And then of course, you know, the joke is that you're, you're improvising a jazz tune and then you throw in a video game reference and then, then you're kind of off to the races, you know, where, where you, uh, kind of get into that.
Um, you know, for me, you know, obviously I grew up listening to this stuff and it's, it's part of my musical vocabulary in a very kind of. Permanent and, and, uh, impossible to detangle way. Um, but for me, it was going to, uh, an event called mag fest. Uh, which I think the sandwich probably talked about, or, you know, uh, that, that was where it was like, I think, you know, you go to there and you see people actually performing this music live and.
Uh, just absolutely stellar musicians at the top of their craft making this music and making it come alive and then it's like, oh, yeah, okay, this is this is a scene that I'm into.
**Morgan:** So you must have gone if you say mag fest, that's the 1 in, like, on the other side. We're in California now, but like, mag fest, the original mid Atlantic gaming convention.
So were you over there? Or did you, like, travel all the way there from here?
**Joe:** No, I was super lucky to grow up in Bethesda, Maryland. So I was able to literally just metro over Uh, so I went to I think it was magfest six Uh, now we're on like magfest 21 or some, uh, so i've been going for a while Uh, and just very lucky to kind of stumble upon it just to be like, oh There's this cool weird nerd thing happening and I was on break from college Uh, and I wanted to just see some nerd stuff and then just to kind of get my mind blown by It year over year.
Sometimes I was more excited to go for the nerd stuff and sometimes, you know, I It took a while actually for me to care about the music to be frank, um, because, uh, it wasn't, you know, cause a lot of the early acts that I saw were like metal acts or, you know, hard rock acts, which, you know, was fine. But as a jazz musician, it wasn't like that exciting to me.
Um, I, I will say I, and shout out to them, the super soul bros was the, the, um, the band that kind of. Really sort of made me go, wow, like, because just the, you know, they were playing soul music and jazz music and horns and just incredible talent and, um, they have been an inspiration for a lot of, you know, a lot of my musical journey, just seeing how good they are and how much, how wonderful of a show they put on for so many years.
**Morgan:** And now Circle of Life.
**Joe:** I know. And now I got to play with them. That was, that was very much, uh, I was trying not to just fanboy out there on stage, but I got to sit in with them, uh, this year at Magwest, uh, and I got to arrange a song where they, they recorded on it and, you know, that was a huge song for me and we got nominated for cover of the year and like all this sort of stuff.
Yeah. It's, it's a small world. And if you stick around long enough and you keep kind of grinding, you eventually get to meet people. These people and play with them and they're all awesome and, you know, all super nerdy and fun.
**Morgan:** Yeah, that's awesome. So, uh, one of the instruments that you play is called an Ewi.
What was the, first of all, can you explain what the heck that is? Because I don't think very many people have even seen it. And then secondly, how did you encounter it the first time?
**Joe:** Yeah, um, so the Ewi, it stands for electronic wind instrument. Um, there are a number of sort of wind synths out there. Uh, the Ewi is sort of shorthand for all of them, uh, but there are technically other ones.
There's like the Roland Aerophone, which a friend of mine uses and, um, you know, a bunch of different ones, but the Akai Ewi is sort of the most well known. Um, it is essentially a woodwind instrument, like, in terms of fingering and more or less how you approach it, uh, but it's a synthesizer. Uh, and so you're controlling it, you know, with a combination of your fingers and the breath, uh, going through the instrument.
So, uh, you have a lot of the same sort of expressive capabilities. Of, uh, you know, a saxophone or a clarinet or, you know, some, some similar thing, but it's, it's a digital signal that's coming out. So you can do all sorts of fun things with it, uh, in terms of assigning it to whatever sort of MIDI instruments or synthesized instrument that you want.
Um, so I discovered EWI, um, probably it was a combination of two things. One was. Uh, the pandemic, um, because I had a small child and, uh, uh, basically a 1 bedroom, or I guess it was 2 bedroom, uh, and I needed a way to practice without waking her from her nap. Uh, so I was like, maybe I should try and get a wind synth because I can wear headphones.
Uh, it was a very, like, a practical, like, you know, I had played with, uh, you know, WindSense before in, like, you know, music shops as a novelty, uh, and I played on some bad ones, and I found that I didn't Like, well, it wasn't for me, um, but it was only because they were bad ones, right? So, like,
**Morgan:** How did you know?
What makes it a bad one?
**Joe:** Because there was latency. Ah. So, you know, the bad ones, just the amount of time it takes for it to register a note. If it's not instantaneous, then it doesn't feel good to play. Sure. So, um, I also watched a YouTube video from a guy named, um, Carlos, uh, Aini, Aini, I can't remember. He goes by the, the, the name Insane in the Rain is his sort of YouTube.
Um, also a big guy in the video game music scene. And he put out a whole instructional video on, like, how to choose an Ewi, what Ewis are good, and, uh, and, and he recommended, you know, the Akai Ewi 4000S as the Ewi to get, uh, which made it a lot simpler, uh, because I just went out and I, uh, lived in, I live in San Francisco.
And I literally just searched for, like, somebody selling an EWI 4000S in the Bay Area, and there was somebody selling it! And, you know, and so I, I met him, I got a really good deal on it, because probably like me, he didn't know how to use it, and he gave up on it. Um, and when I got it out of the box, the first notes, or couple notes I played on it, I was like, oh, this was a waste of 300 bucks.
Um, And it was only kind of out of necessity that I went into, like, Googled the Akai UE 4000S instruction manual and actually figured out what knobs you have to turn and what settings you have to set to actually make it responsive. Um, and, but once I did that, then I was just off to the races. Because I was like, oh, this is really fun.
This is a really fun instrument to play once you've configured it.
**Morgan:** So you're, you play saxophone. Are the fingerings, are you able to configure it so it's the same fingerings or did you have to learn new fingerings?
**Joe:** Um, it is almost identical to saxophone. There's a little bit of difference here and there.
Um, there are, what I've learned over the years of playing it is that there are certain things that a saxophone does better than an Ewi and vice versa. Um, and they, just little nuances of the instruments, certain things, certain trills are easier. Um, conceptually, uh, the Ewi has an eight octave range. Um, compared to the saxophone where going, you know, any higher requires a tremendous amount of practice and skill in the altissimo.
Um, so you can really kind of abuse that. Yeah, that's what it is. Basically, all you do is you do like a single pattern and you take it up eight octaves. It sounds incredible and everybody's really impressed, but I'm not doing anything. I'm just doing the same pattern and I'm moving the octave roller. over and over.
So it's one of those things where it feels like a cheat in some ways. Um, but then there are things that are really hard on Ewi, just trilling certain notes. Um, so, and, and playing expressively because you don't have the same amount of like breath control. You have to bend notes sort of manually. Um, so it's, it's one of those things where like certain things are way easier on a saxophone.
Certain things are way easier on an Ewi and it's it's very idiosyncratic.
**Morgan:** Yeah, so my brain is having trouble with the breath part of it. Um, something like a keytar makes a lot of sense to me. You push, you know, you program a sound to a button, you push the button, that sound comes out. Um, do you know anything about how the mechanism works to like where the breath connects and how, how that actually like, because it's not, you're pushing the buttons, but you're also giving input.
Um, through your breath. And I am assuming there's some sort of expressive input, like with a wind instrument, saxophone, or clarinet.
**Joe:** Yeah. I mean, it's, I'm not, I don't profess to be an expert on the inner workings, but it's basically, it's, it's sensing how hard the air is hitting the sensor. Right. So the more air you put into it, the louder, or, you know, it just the same way that if you were using like a keyboard and you had an expression pedal, um, or like, uh, I guess maybe an organ, um, and you were just pumping the pedal to give more, you know, volume or air to it.
It's, it's the same sort of concept, um, or I also play a lot of melodica, um, which is a sort of like a little handheld keyboard that has a tube and a mouthpiece. Uh, it's a similar sort of concept of you can hold a note and then you can just put more or less air into the tube to just make the note sound, you know, more or less, it's, it's kind of just dynamic range.
**Morgan:** Nice. Thanks. Thanks. Okay. Well that makes a lot of sense though. I know there's a sensor for that. Um, how about what do you do for programming? Like, do 'cause it, I'm assuming it came with a set of sounds. Mm-Hmm. , how much do you mess with that? Do you put new sounds in all the time? Or like, can you, how flexible is it as you're playing?
**Joe:** Yeah, that's a great question. 'cause this is where, um, I worry that I was gonna go down the deep end. Uh, and this is where Carlos's video was really instructive to me. Uh, because he was like, the biggest difference and why the 4000s is the model to get compared to the newer models, uh, which will have, uh, you know, maybe better onboard sounds.
But the 4000s is the sort of the holy grail one to get because it actually allows you to edit the onboard synths. And, uh, you know, you can always use it as a MIDI controller and you can always kind of program it to sound like a MIDI instrument. But, um, A, that's not always great for live performance because then you also like have to have a MIDI interface and like a computer that it's hooked up to.
But also, and this was kind of like an aesthetic point, but like, if you play an Ewi using sounds that are trying to emulate acoustic instruments. It's kind of gonna sound dumb.
**Morgan:** Yeah, that makes sense. Like,
**Joe:** like, because the best case scenario, it's like, well, you could have just played an acoustic instrument.
Yeah.
Um, so, so his philosophy that I totally agree with is just make it sound like a really cool synth. Um, and lean into the digital synthy nature of it because that is cool and that sort of makes it unique. Um, and so the 4000S, there's a guy, um, on the internet whose name is Matt Patchman or something.
Patchman is his last name. But he is legend in the music scene because he has created his own sort of custom synths for the ewe 4000s. You can download you pay like 30 50 bucks for it or whatever for the download and and it's a one time sort of download patch. And you put it onto your 4000s and they just, it sounds great.
Um, and it completely replaces all of the sounds that it came with, with these patchman sounds. If you talk to an EWI player, um, you know, the same way that like, you know, there's like a cult of personality around like saxophones with like, oh, I've got a Selmer 6 or whatever. Uh, the EWI 4000S with the Patchman sound bank, that is like, that's the thing that you need to get if you're going to be a professional EWI player.
And it's just kind of funny that there's like a, That's what you get. And then it sounds great. And you're good. Um, so to answer your original question, like the amount of experimentation I do is pretty limited to just picking from the 100 because the patchman sound bank comes with 100 if it sounds like it's.
There's a lot to choose from. Um, and so I pick out the, you know, 5 or 6 patches that I like the most within that. Uh, to use. I haven't, I haven't gotten fully down the rabbit hole of tweaking each individual sense parameter, but I could, if I wanted to.
**Morgan:** Can you change them while you're playing? Or do you have to like do a, take a minute?
**Joe:** Um, you can change your patch very quickly. Um, so you can, uh, and there are actually ways within that UB4000S that you can program specific patch changes to, um, like note combinations. So you like press down a button and then you finger like a C and that's going to change the patch on the fly. Um, I have a friend named Steven who's like, that's a big part of his sort of improvisational technique is that he will switch instruments midline.
Um, which is very cool and trippy. And, and yeah, You know, I think that's, that's, there's a lot of fun showing off type stuff that you can do with the Ewi if you, if you are willing to go deep into the rabbit hole and nerd out on it.
**Morgan:** Yeah. So in the Ewi community, since you brought that up, how, how would you know if you were walking up, like, and seeing someone, seeing a band play, like, what do you appreciate in a player, if you're, like, watching them, and you're, like, what types of things are you noticing where you're, like, oh, yeah, this, this person is clearly experienced with this instrument.
**Joe:** I mean, there are a couple of things. One is any instrument, how good are you at playing the instrument? Like,
you know.
And, and, I mean, there are ways that the Ewi can be used to, you know, Like I said, there are cheats where you can just do the same pattern and just go crazy with the octaves.
But again, I think that if it's done musically, it can be really cool and really fun. Um, you know, I think when I'm listening to any sort of horn or any sort of melodic instrument playing, I want to just see how good their sense of time is and their lines and their vocabulary Um, but I do think that every really good Eevee player that I've seen has found some, some way to lean into the weird, fun, technological aspect of it.
Um, I have mine and it's not even musical. Uh, you, I don't know if you've seen this, but, uh, I've actually hooked up LEDs to my Eevee. Um, so, and because nobody really knows what an Eevee is supposed to look like, they don't know that the LEDs have been sort of Velcroed onto it. So, um, it's always my favorite thing to do.
It's, it's, it's not appropriate for a jazz gig, but, uh, occasionally for like a rock gig when I'm playing EWI, I will wait until the climax of the song. I'll hold a high note and then I'll push a button on the EWI to trigger the LEDs, which light up the whole thing like a Christmas tree. And it's just always gets a great reaction.
It's always really fun. And,
**Morgan:** um,
**Joe:** it's a nice surprise.
**Morgan:** Nice. So I was surprised by it. So that's, that's awesome. Uh, I, we've been talking about you in context of jazz, but then you mentioned a couple other genres. Do you play EWI in other genres or saxophone? Yeah.
**Joe:** Yeah, no, absolutely. I mean, one of the things about the, um, you know, video game music scene is that it really covers all of the different genres.
Um, and you know, playing traditional jazz is cool. And that's one thing that you can do, but like, Um, you know, anywhere a saxophone could fit and plenty of places where it doesn't fit. I still get asked to, to play and, and to, you know, contribute to that because it's just, it's, it's fun. It's always fun to kind of, um, hop in on, on tunes and sort of contribute to that sound.
Um, so yeah, I mean, I'll play Ewi, um, in a rock setting for sure. Um, you know, I haven't played metal Ewi, but. Um, you know, there's a lot, there's a lot of situations where the can be kind of fun. Uh, 1 of the things I'll do is, you know, because again, with that 8 octave range, um, you can actually play bass pretty easily.
Um, and so there, there will be times when I'm with my band and I, uh, take over for the basis. I give the basis of the break and I just start doing walking baselines on the synth and. Um, and it's fun. I mean, it's, you know, porn players don't usually get to cover the bass parts, but it's really, um, I, I enjoy playing that type of stuff a lot.
**Morgan:** I gotta say, just watching, um, so this was my first. MagWest Um, and, and there was just so much to take in, but I kept seeing Ewis around. And again, I've, I have a friend here. I'm friends with, I don't know if you know, warrior, Bob . Um, he's been around the scene for a while. Anyway, he's, um, he has one,
**Joe:** uh,
**Morgan:** that he's learning to play kind of casually, but uh, that's the only person I've ever met in my life.
I'd never even heard of this instrument. And then all of a sudden they are on every Every stage everywhere. I'm like, what is going on? Uh, they were replacing trumpets. They were replacing like saxophone. Like they were everywhere and the sounds that came out of them were completely different. It was so interesting.
There was one I wanted to ask you about an effect because again, uh, relating to like the, the, the air moving in. Okay. There's a sensor that, can sense how, how strong the air is going and give some, um, change the sound that way. What the heck happened when that guy started scatting into a microphone?
Yeah,
**Joe:** that's Trevor from character select. Yeah. So everybody's got their sort of thing. Trevor's is, uh, he does the vocoder, uh, and, uh, he does a fantastic job with it too. Um, so again, because it's a digital signal, um, and y you can do all sorts of fun stuff with, with digital signals. You can, you know, run it through pedals, you can run it through distortion, you can do Delay chorus or whatever.
And, and what Trevor, uh, I don't know if he discovered the technique, but he's, he's really good at it is you can run it through a vocoder, uh, which means that essentially you're using the, uh, Ewi to control the pitch of. Um, the tone, but you are speaking into a microphone that's actually shaping the words, uh, and it's the same way that, like, a talkbox or a vocoder would work if you were doing it in a synth.
Um, so, like, it's, it's not like that revolutionary. You can do it on a keyboard, but because he's such an amazing saxophonist.
Yeah.
He's able to basically scat solos, um, and shape the sound. So he's speaking words as he's, you know, improvising these solos. And it's just a really cool effect. He wasn't, so
**Morgan:** the pitch was, was not coming from him singing the pitch.
He was, he was playing.
**Joe:** Yeah, so he was, he, he was basically just shouting, but words and then the pitch was getting altered based off of what the, uh, since was, was producing. I think he can probably sing too, but, you know, you get the robot sounding voice.
**Morgan:** Yeah,
**Joe:** doing that. And it's just a really cool effect.
I don't have a vocoder, but I, and I don't want to really, uh, you know, steal, uh, Trevor's shtick, but I do think what he does is really, really cool. It's really,
**Morgan:** yeah, it was, the input, right? The input is, uh, fascinating to me. I just don't know that much about it.
Um, so yeah, that was, that was pretty cool to see too. Um, Let's shift gears over into your performance a little bit more. Thank you for indulging me. It was a
**Joe:** fun instrument. It's just a really cool, like idiosyncratic thing.
**Morgan:** What would you say you play the most, uh, as far as instruments go? Do you mostly play sax or, or have you started playing more Eewee than sax or where you at right now?
**Joe:** Um, I'd say I'd still consider myself a saxophonist, uh, you know, first and foremost, and, uh, you know, that's what I spent the most time, you know, playing. Training and learning. Um, you know, I have the whole kind of arsenal of saxophones now at my disposal. When I was, uh, in high school, I started on alto. Uh, I got forced to play Barry, um, which was an interesting, you know, I was kind of scrawny high school kid.
So like that Barry was as big as I was. Um, but holy cow, what an amazing instrument to play when you're in high school because. Um, like on some level. It is so hard to play and it is so niche to play that you can't do the sorts of shredding things that alto or tenor players can do. So it really forces you to learn like tone and rhythm and like lyricism.
And I'm so, I'm actually so grateful that I got to play Barry for so much of my high school career because I feel like it, it trains you in a different way. But of course, I also play alto and tenor and I have a soprano and, you know, there will be times when I'm recording where I'll record all four instruments at once.
**Morgan:** Because shredding is fun too. Yeah,
**Joe:** of course. And it's a lot easier to bring an alto to a gig than a bari. Yes. Lugging them around is harder. So yeah, so I play saxophone. I also play a lot of keys and you know every once in a while I'll do some vocals or stuff like that, but um, But yeah, I mean I consider myself a saxophonist.
That's that's kind of what I think most people know me for.
**Morgan:** My brain is spinning with all these electronic possibilities, married to instruments. I am familiar with. The iwi makes it possible for the player to really expand what they're capable of filling in on base or wailing away, eight octaves higher than you'd be able to on a wind instrument. I got to tell you if you've never heard of this before, definitely check it out.
There are a ton of videos on YouTube that you can watch to get a sense of what is possible with this instrument. But now that we've heard a little bit about what the instrument is, let's hear a little from Joe about where he might play it because it turns out. Joe was involved in some really cool projects in a very particular niche of the internet and also some live stuff in San Francisco. See at his heart, Joe is a jazz guy.
And what do jazz folks love more than anything else? To get creative with other jazz folks. He just happens to have beeps and boops and led lights. In addition to a saxophone in his creative toolkit.
If you love this, be sure to subscribe, rate, and comment. Thanks so much. But enough from me, let's hear about all of this from Joe.
Dwelling of duels. What is dwelling of duels?
**Joe:** Uh, so do I know duels is a monthly video game arranging like a video game cover arranging competition. It's a friendly competition. Um, you know, there's no prize except for bragging rights.
And You know, you get some plugins if you win, but, um, generally speaking, it's just a community of really, really passionate, um, arrangers and producers and performers who get together every month. Um, you know, the, the people who run it, they'll, they'll on the first of the month, they'll say a theme, you know, the theme is, you know, Mega Man month or, you know, party game months or, uh, you know, games that were on the N64 or whatever.
And everyone has a month. From the day the theme is announced to just create a song that fits that theme and we submit them all anonymously and then at the end of the month we have a big listening party and we all vote anonymously on the tracks and then, you know, they reveal the results and we start the process all over again.
Um, I discovered Dueling of Duels a couple of years ago. Um, again, during the pandemic, um, that was, uh, you know, I, the pandemic was what, you know, had a big impact on me as a musician because I had previously just been a jazz musician who would go out and gig and, you know, fair, just played jazz standards or whatever, um, and couldn't do that,
um,
both because of COVID, but also because I had just had my, my first kid.
Um, and so, you know, being stuck inside, I just couldn't do anything. And, uh, you know, I reached out on a random Facebook group to do some recording stuff. And the guy after the recording was like, hey, do you want to join me and do this dwelling of duals thing? And I, I did. And, um. You know, we did this, uh, track, which the first track we did was actually, it was an animal crossing track.
And I, in fact, coincidentally did put some talk box on that track.
Um,
but you know, and it did well. And, uh, you know, the songs that. Like I heard in that listening party blew me away. The quote, like it's a small community of like only, you know, 30, 40 people. Um, but like the talent and the caliber of the musicianship is unlike anything.
Uh, you know, one of the, the guy who currently holds the record for most gold medals is Tony Dickinson. Who's the, he's the basis for the trans Siberian orchestra. Like that's the level of, and like a full on professional producer. Like, Dwelling of Duelists has produced, like, it is, some of its alumni, because it's been going on for over 20 years, um, and, like, some of its alumni go on to make games for, you know, music for games, or, you know, they go on to perform, you know, at the main stage of MAGFest, or, or, et cetera, and, uh, and so just the, the talent there is incredible, and so, um, being a saxophone player, Uh, you know, it's very easy for me to collaborate, and so I get asked to join and do stuff, and then, um, you know, I, over time, got the confidence to start arranging my own stuff and asking people to be part of it, and then I was just off to the races.
**Morgan:** Nice. What did that look like, as far as arranging? Like, when you decided to start, what was your, how did you approach that?
**Joe:** Yeah, so I remember because I, you know, one of the things that's interesting about Dwelling of Duels is, again, like you were mentioning before, like, it's very genre agnostic. Um, there's a traditional, like, it has sort of roots in the metal, rock, shreddy, guitar heavy type of stuff.
Um, but it has really expanded like what, you know, we've got harp solos and we've got, you know, vocal tunes and, you know, synth pop and just whatever. Um, and as a result also, I will sometimes collaborate with people who don't even read music. Uh, and they'll just be like, here's, here's the demo. Can you just play on it?
And I was like, cool. Yes. Um, and so for me, it was very challenging to arrange for those musicians because I didn't. Like, I prepared sheet music for them, which was totally necessary. Um, and I learned, you know, it was just, I learned over time, like, oh, this is really more about like the collaboration and how do you actually work with people who are often.
Not even in your time zone. Um, one of the coolest, one of the songs I'm actually most proud of is a collaboration I did, it was a splatoon cover and it was with a friend of mine who was a saxophone player who lives in Israel and we recorded as if we were in the same room trading solos, but it was completely asynchronous.
So we were trading for, so I would start a phrase and then I would leave some space on the recording. And then he would respond to that phrase a week later, and then I'd go back and I'd redo the phrase, so it kind of seemed like I was responding to him. And it's completely faked, but if you listen to it, it seems like we are right in the same room talking to each other, and it's really, really fun.
And like, as a, like, that's one of the things that you kind of learn when you're in the producing and arranging phase, is like, just ways that you can collaborate. Remotely. Yeah,
**Morgan:** that's hard.
**Joe:** I was so much fun. It's so rewarding and it really does. You know, it's you, you have the benefit of getting to do multiple takes and you kind of get to think it through.
But ultimately, if you, you work at it, it still sounds spontaneous and it still has that sort of. live energy to it, uh, which I just think is super fun.
**Morgan:** And you find these people just from like knowing the scene and going to these listening parties and watching other people perform and seeing who's who on the tracks.
**Joe:** Yeah, absolutely. It's a, I mean, we all have a discord. We hang out. Um, some of my very closest friends, you know, we talk all the time, uh, about everything. Sometimes we, you know, play games. Sometimes we meet up in person, you know, if I'm ever in town, uh, I'll, I'll, and I know that a friend of mine from dwelling of duels is, is there we'll meet up and our kids will talk and all that kind of stuff.
Um, some. Some good dads and moms and parents in the D. O. D. community, which is it's great. It's been really super.
**Morgan:** Yeah, that's awesome. So virtual completely virtual.
**Joe:** Yeah, unless I mean, except that we all do meet up in person at mag fest and mag West, whoever that tends to be like a gathering. Um, I mean, it was super fun, like, you know, Magwest this year, I got to play with the Tiberian Sons, um,
for
their mainstay set.
And what was amazing is that I had known them for years through Dwelling of Duels, but it was the first time I'd actually met them in person. And it was, I, you know, we, we hugged, but then we immediately went to soundcheck and we were just performing on stage. Having only like actually seen each other in the flesh for like 24 hours.
And that's just really special. That's really cool.
**Morgan:** I missed their, I was driving up that night. Um, but my buddy warrior, Bob was there and like, that was the one that he was like, I got to see that one. And I did buy their, I went to their panel late the next day that I bought their album. And I'm like, wow, these guys are good.
**Joe:** Yeah. Really good. Just absolutely incredible performers, arrangers, uh, producers. I mean, it's impossible to watch that show and not come away like, oh, wow.
**Morgan:** Yeah. I didn't even watch the show and I was impressed.
**Joe:** Yeah, totally.
**Morgan:** Awesome. You got to play with them. Um, so when you're arranging, um, for these games, so there's a theme.
Do you pull, uh, like melodies from the game or like where, how do you approach like what you're, how you're going to conceptualize your arrangements?
**Joe:** Yeah, that's a, that's a great question. So I think, um, you know, from my perspective, everybody in DoD has a slightly different arrangement style. Um, and, uh, for me, most of the songs that I arrange are games or songs that I have known for years.
Uh, you know, songs that I have already an emotional connection with, or, you know, because I played the game or just because I knew the song or whatever. Very rarely will I arrange a song that I don't already have feelings about. Um, and usually, um, what I am trying to do in the arrangement is to either amplify or comment on my existing emotional attachment to the song.
Um, and I, one of the things that I talk about in, in dwelling of duals a ton is, uh, uh, the head, the heart, the butt, and the, the laugh. Um, those are the sort of four elements to any arrangement. Like you can really, and, and you don't need to have all four, uh, but if you do have all four, then that's like a recipe for a winning track.
Like if you have in. Engaged with your mind and are doing something clever and interesting or, you know, technically cool. Um, if you've also sort of captured the heart and soul of the arrangement and, you know, it feels like something that's be put passion into and then the, but always important. Uh, it has to be, yeah, it has to be grooving.
Uh, you know, it's possible to, to win DoD without having a grooving track, but it's very difficult. Um, and, uh, and then the laugh, I think that's, um, I think in there is an inherent silliness to what we are doing that, um, you know, because we're taking songs from games and playful, you know, Mario jumping on turtles or whatever.
And we're trying to, you know, turn it into, you know, these grand musical statements. I think if. If you don't take it that seriously, and you actually just lean into the fun of it, it just makes for a really, really enjoyable track. So those are the sort of elements that I'm trying to, you know, pursue when I'm doing an arrangement.
**Morgan:** I love that formula. That is awesome. Um, what happens, have you, I mean, these are every single month. What happens if you haven't played the game or don't know the theme? Do you still arrange? Or do you just pass on that one?
**Joe:** Uh, well, I mean, I usually, I've been trying not to kill myself with, with arranging and performing every month.
It just, it is a lot of work. But again, what I find actually super fulfilling and really, really fun is, uh, on the months that I don't arrange, I collaborate. Um, so my friends will reach out to me and they'll say, Hey, I'm, I'm working on this song. Can you lend saxophone to it? And, uh, oftentimes I've never played the game and never heard it.
Uh, I'll listen to the song and I'll be like, oh yeah, that's cool. Um, or I'll just, you know, I just want to help out a friend. Um, and, uh, uh, a lot of my favorite sort of tunes have come out of just saying yes to those sorts of collaborations and doing that. It is, it's a very sort of community focused type of organization, which is great.
**Morgan:** Yeah, yeah. Oh, that's cool. Have you ever won? I have
**Joe:** won a handful. I don't want to brag. Oh, you
**Morgan:** really won.
**Joe:** I've won a lot. I have the third most gold medals behind. Oh my gosh,
**Morgan:** I'm talking to a superstar here. That's awesome.
**Joe:** Like I said, it's a small community. I, I, um, I do win from time to time. And, um, you know, I've often, and I, I, I'm kind of somewhat unique in the DoD community and that I have basically all of my tracks are collaborations.
Uh, I don't, if I'm doing a solo track, it will be sort of as a joke, alts entry that isn't for competition. Uh, I, for me, I'm always, um, looking to collaborate because as a saxophone player, you just. You can't even even, you know, you can't, you can do sense and you can program drums or whatever. But like, for me, it is the way that I arrange as I arrange for a full band.
So I have to get my, my, my friends together. I want to, you know, get a full band sound, which requires a lot of collaborators and. Fortunately, I have incredible, wonderful, tremendous collaborators who elevate everything to do. And that's, uh, you know, that's why I keep doing it.
**Morgan:** Yeah. Yeah. That's awesome. Um, you still play jazz.
Yeah. Um, and so another project that we were talking about, you do a lot and let's just comment, this isn't even your day job, right?
**Joe:** No, no. I, I have a. I have a demanding day job as a, as a lawyer and, and we're going to start up, but yeah, this is, this is a, a hobby. I really care a lot about and I'm grateful that I have the ability to pursue.
**Morgan:** Yeah. Um, so you started a jazz jam. Is that correct? San Francisco. Um, again, video game themed. Can you tell me a little bit about your jam?
**Joe:** Yeah, absolutely. Um, so I, you know, again, this is before the pandemic, you know, I would play in a, in a jazz combo. We would just play gigs around the city and doing jazz standards.
And again, the, the way that we, me and the bass player of this combo bonded was that we would, we were both nerds and we would slip in little video game quotes here and there for our own amusement and the audience wouldn't know, but we would, we would know. Um, and. You know, as the pandemic started to, to ease up and is like gigs are starting to happen again.
I, you know, reached out to the space where it's like, you know, there are people who are doing video game jazz jams. Um, and, you know, it's, we were certainly not the 1st people to come up with the idea that, um. It was a big thing in the New York scene, um, you know, a friend of mine, Don Palombi is, was kind of like, 1 of the pioneers in that space.
Um, but we're like, you know, we could probably try and do that here. Um, and, you know, John to, you know, John Harris, my bassist, to his credit, he's like, I know people, let's, let's call them up. And we had a rehearsal and, uh, we played a bunch of video game tunes. Um, and we relied heavily on this website, which is a publicly available resource of video game sheet music called vgleadsheets.
com.
Nice.
Um, which is a tremendous, tremendous, it's like the real book, but for video game music.
Nice.
Um, and really grateful to have all that. And then we called up a venue that both John and I had played at a bunch and we're like, do you want to try this? And they're like, yeah, sure. Um, and we've been doing it every month for almost two years now.
Um, and it's just really cool. I, we all honestly expected it to be harder.
Yeah.
We expected it to be harder to find an audience for it. We expected it to be harder to find a venue. Um, but, um, you know, chalk it up to the Bay Area and San Francisco, and they're just being a lot of nerds here. And, um, you know, I'll, I'll toot my horn a little bit.
Like we, we do put on a good show and it's, it's seasoned jazz musicians. Like it's, um, people who are otherwise, you know, known entities in the Bay Area jazz community. Yeah. Um, You know, we're able to get people, um, to show up with, you know, mostly just word of mouth. And, um, you know, the, you know, the Oceaneal house, which is where we play in San Francisco.
They're just a fantastic venue. The, the owners. Um, are super supportive. The, the owner, uh, the guy who runs it, his name is Miles. He jumps in on and plays drums with us. Cause he's a killer drummer
and
yeah, it's just, it's, this has been really super, super fulfilling and surprising to me. I didn't know or think that it would exist and have the same power that it did.
Um, but. It's very meaningful to me that that we're kind of building this community because I know that it is exactly the kind of community that I would have wanted. Um, when I was learning my instrument,
yeah,
you know, there was a, I don't have a chip on my shoulder like everybody, but, you know, there are certainly jazz musicians that scoff a little bit at, you know, video game music as being not serious and in certain places.
And I just, you know, and I'm from Maryland, which, you know, in the DC jazz scene is also kind of a little snooty. Um, but, um, yeah, in, in the Bay area, everybody's super cool. And everybody's just, you know, we have people from like KCSM and like, like legit jazz people who have no idea of never played a video game.
Um, our trumpet player had never played a video game and he loves it. He, he comes every, you know, almost every month and he plays and he's just like, I just like these tunes. They're fun to play on. do you
**Morgan:** have the sheets? They must have the lead sheets there. Or do you prep in advance?
**Joe:** Um, we, we have iPads, um, that have VG sheets on them for, for when we open it up. So we'll do, we'll do, we play from six to nine, like from six to seven or so is the house band set. So that's like rehearsed, um, songs that we've played before, you know, just the house band, professional musicians.
That's also where we'll probably do some customer arrangements that aren't in the book that we wanted to play. Um, and then we open it up to the jam. And so everybody who is listening to the house band, they come up, they've had a drink or 2 and, uh, and then it kind of devolves into mostly controlled chaos for the last couple hours and, uh, everybody gets a good chance to play.
And we just call tunes. Whatever people want to hear.
**Morgan:** Nice. So, um, the quoting that's funny that, um, cause I know that jazz musicians do that all the time and in jazz land, the quoting of tossing in, you know, a little bits of, you know, whoever here and there, um, how often would you say the audience gets it?
**Joe:** Uh, it depends on the audience. Um, uh, but I think, um, playing these ultra combo gigs and playing at There are certain Lines that you can quote that people will always recognize, uh, and react to. Um, there it is a sort of shared vocabulary, um, that, that everybody kind of, uh, you know, can, can get a wink and, and, and enjoy out of, uh, yeah, you know, there's a, a funness to that.
Um, you know, some, some, some quotes are more subtle than others. Some are just kind of for your own benefit or for maybe two or four people in the audience. But
**Morgan:** yeah.
**Joe:** Uh.
**Morgan:** Yeah. Oh, well, that's super fun. Um, we could talk for a long time, but I want to ask one final question, which I ask every guest at the end of the episode.
Um, so do you know what Zeitgeist means? This is Zeitgeist Radio. So, Zeitgeist, uh, Spirit of the Times, there's a moment that I like to call a Zeitgeist moment, where this is a musical podcast, you're making music or listening or somehow interacting with music, and you know, when you just like, plug in, and you just like, you connect to that broader, the spirit of the times, like, that you're in, whether it's in that moment, or connecting to a history, or whatever, but, but, That sense of being part of something larger than yourself.
I call that a zeitgeist moment. So I will ask you what was either a recent or a particularly memorable Zeitgeist moment for you. While you're thinking of that, I'll share one. Um, and it was actually listening to SuperSoul Bros at MAGWEST. Um, that was, so I'm, I'm classically trained. And have collaborated with a lot of different people.
I've done some vocal jazz. Um, and I just, I know more people in the classical and jazz world. I feel like there's kind of more of a mesh there. Um, And, uh, at the, this was the, they were playing at the pool side and at Meg West and I had heard a lot of rock and a lot of metal,
**Joe:** but
**Morgan:** it was, it wasn't until like, I was having conversations with friends and meeting new people and I had to like stop and, you know, just like, okay, hold on.
I got to listen to these guys. Um, because the level of like, it was, it was some of the best jazz I've ever heard in my life. Um, at that poolside and it kind of like changed, it shifted my perception of the event and just kind of who was around me from like, Oh, this is a bunch of rocker nerds, which is awesome.
I love rocker nerds too, to like, I don't know, I could relate to it in a different way. Um, yeah, that's the super soul
**Joe:** bros effect. Yeah.
**Morgan:** He's got like, cause again, I play keys and like. I was mind blown by what was happening there and just the shifting people coming in and out and every single person who walked in was so talented.
Like it was the best jazz show I've seen in a long time. And I was at a video, it was so out of what I expected out of left field for my expectations for the event that I suddenly felt like I belonged a lot more. And I felt like, I could relate and be part of it and connect to people in a way that I hadn't expected to walking into that event.
So it's just kind of for me at that poolside.
**Joe:** I mean, that's, that's a great, and that's, I mean, you're, you're describing literally exactly the way I felt when I saw my first Soul Bro show,
because
they've been that good forever. And it's like, it's kind I, I don't want to I do want to gush. They're, they're incredible inspirations to me.
And, and like, you know, I've been so lucky to not only get to, you know, hang with them, but to like, You know, to share a stage with them to perform with them to just actually go get, you know, tacos with them because they're great people and they're great hangs. And, you know, um, you know, it's just a, they're, they're very inspirational people to be around.
I mean, I'm going to try and answer your question about the Zeitgeist. Um, I, I'm going to crib very, very heavily from another person who, uh, you know, is, is a, is a name in our scene, Charlie Rosen of the 8 bit big band. Um, Um, you know, he's, he's, he's very much, you know, in the zeitgeist, he's a Grammy winner for, you know, video game music, um, you know, and, and very much a big shot.
Um, but he gave an interview that I think was really him and Adam Neely, who's another YouTube person, talked about actually how video game music connects with jazz history. And that really connected some dots for me. So I'll paraphrase what he said, cause he said it better, but. You know, in the old days, in the jazz tradition, in like the 1940s and 50s, what was bebop?
What was Charlie Parker and Kennerball Irelie doing? They were actually, generally, they were playing show tunes. They were playing, um, you know, My One and Only Love, Misty, you know, Autumn Leaves, I think even, like, these were all songs that were on Broadway. Um, yeah, that because they were the pop music of the day, um, and they were the songs that if you played in a club, people would recognize because they were the Zeitgeist, you use your term and, you know, and these jazz musicians were just kind of riffing off of the pop music.
And if you look at today, well, I mean, no shade on Broadway, but there just isn't new Broadway music anymore. Um, like it's all adaptations and all whatever, but like, what, what are the songs that people know? Well, they know pop music, sure. But then they know video game music. Um, and that is, and, and if you look at the way that video game music, particularly classic, like NES, super NES Genesis era music, it was built like show tunes were built, looping forms, AABA formats.
you know, really cool progressions and chord changes and super recognizable melodies. Like the, the restraints of the hardware forced the music to be actually really, really good for jazz. Um, and so, I mean, from my perspective, what we are doing by doing this video game jazz, Is carrying on very much that jazz tradition in for a new generation.
I mean, I feel like I'm kind of overselling it a little bit, but like, that's how I feel.
**Morgan:** Yeah, that makes sense. I'd never thought about it that way. That's yeah.
**Joe:** Yeah. So, for me, when I heard that interview, and that that's sort of what made it click for me. It's like, Oh, right. This is what jazz has always been about.
Actually, it's always been about taking what exists already in pop culture and then riffing on it, putting your own spin on it, making it collaborative, making it fun, making it accessible to the audience in this different way. And really connecting with the music on a deep level. Um, so when I heard that, that's, that's when the light bulbs went out.
Um, and you know, again, I'll give one more shout out to the soul rose, but they've been doing that for 20 years. Uh, and they've been connecting to the music and making it real. And I've been, uh, In a way that has resonated with people. So, um, you know, to be part of that tradition. It's really cool.
**Morgan:** Yeah. Oh, I love that.
You're like stretching across time. That's awesome. Well, Joe, thank you so much for being on my podcast. Absolutely.
**Joe:** Thank you. Thank you again for talking to me.
**Morgan:** Thanks for tuning into this episode of zeitgeists radio. Please make sure to follow the podcast on your podcast app. I'm also on Facebook and Instagram at zeitgeists academy. And you can always email me at info at academy.com. I love hearing from you. Music for this episode was created by Ian Boswell.
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