Video game music

**Morgan:** If you want to see me at my most upset play Mario kart with me.

I can't promise you it will be a fun time, but there's a good chance you might learn some new combinations of swear words. I specifically have wrath towards rainbow road. not only do I feel like I'm having a seizure, but unless I play on baby mode, which is what I do now, when I'm forced to play, I can not stay on that darn road.

That entire level is just me falling off until you lap me three times and win. So when a friend of mine suggested we learn a song together and put forth the rainbow road theme song. I certainly had mixed emotions. Sure. I love playing music and haven't done anything with this particular friend in a while, but rainbow road really. However it turns out the music from anything Mario is kind of an entrance level for a lot of people who play and arrange music from video games. There's a huge community here.

There's an acronym and everything.

VGM video game music. And like many musical subcultures turns out there is no end to how deep you can go down this rabbit hole.

Today, we're exploring the VGM scene with someone who has invested his musical identity and also his career into the music of video games and turns out there's quite a scene.

Welcome to zeitgeists radio, where we learn about musical subcultures from people in the scene. If you love this, please be sure to subscribe, comment and share. Now let's get into the

interview.

My guest today is Stemage, a composer, performer, and audio engineer out of the Bay Area in California. Stemage, welcome to Zeitgeist Radio.

**Stemage:** I'm pleased to be here. Thank you for having me.

**Morgan:** Yeah, I'm stoked to talk to you. This is going to be really fun. Uh, for our listeners out there, can you give us an introduction?

How would you describe yourself musically?

**Stemage:** Oh, well, I'm mostly a guitar player. But I've somehow stumbled my way into writing a lot of non guitar music in the last few years. But that's, that's home for me, is the guitar. I was, I was always a rocker. I was a band hopper. Uh, and then I kind of fell into the video game music scene a little over 20 years ago, uh, when I realized there were bands covering music from games.

Um, you know, fast forward a while and I've, I've been in several different bands kind of celebrating that scene. I ended up lending my hand to, uh, composing for games. I've done some stuff for television. Uh, and most recently I just, I just released my first pinball machine. I did the sound for. Uh, Avatar battle for Pandora pinball.

So some composing chops there, some, uh, sound design chops there, but it's, I've, I'm such a pinball junkie that I couldn't be happier. So, um, yeah, but I've mostly, mostly a rock guy, but I, I just have all, I have. Um, I love sidestepping. I love being forced to try things I'm not used to. Um, and that's sort of led me to a, a full time career in music.

**Morgan:** That's awesome. Um, so a lot of people play video games, video game music is going to be the topic of this episode. There's a difference though, between playing the game. And then I don't think a lot of people make that step over. So what first brought you into the music side of it as a thing outside the game and fall in love with that scene versus just, Oh yeah, this is nice to listen to while I'm playing the game.

**Stemage:** I mean, I think a lot of it comes from childhood and the fact that you, uh, you play, you played these games, kids play, we played video games, like kids watch Lion King on loop, right? So you don't realize how much you're being brainwashed by the music in these games, but when you hear it again for the first time, many years later, it really hits a nerve.

But after you've become a musician, you have an even bigger appreciation for how good it actually is. I mean, these people wrote incredibly. Um, catchy melodies and beats on, on this now considered ancient hardware, very minimal instrumentation. And I'm just like, man, like this, this music is that good then.

Uh, and I, and I can understand that now. Um, and then, you know, that obviously has led to people paying tribute to that stuff, but I've, I've also just been infatuated with how people treat music and games and, um, I, I feel like sometimes music is there to just support the environment and support the gameplay experience, but a lot of times music is its own thing, and it's meant to be its own thing.

It's, it's meant to stand out, um, and that happens a lot. I don't think people a lot of times realize how many genres of music appear in video games now and how much variety there is. So I think it's just, you know, there, there are soundtracks that you could play it. Weddings or funerals or parties or whatever and people would never even know they came from games.

It's just that nerdy association I think that keeps me into it.

**Morgan:** Yeah so we connected at a convention for music and video games This, a lot of people, there's, there's kind of like, uh, there's new people like me who have, that was my first ever time going. I was going to ask, I wasn't sure.

**Stemage:** I was your first one or if that was my first

**Morgan:** one, my friend who's actually been on the podcast before, uh, warrior, Bob, I'll put the link for that episode in the description.

If people want to go back, uh, he's been going for years and he invited me. Uh, but that was my first ever time. And I, um, you know, I, I'm. Dabble in a lot of different scenes, but this is my first time at that type of convention. Um, and there seemed to be a pretty rich, like there were people who, um, really were connecting to, uh, like a history there.

So you've mentioned you've been going for like 20 years. Can you kind of describe, like, I don't know when, when the scene as it is now kind of started, but are you able to dive into the history a little bit of at least what you've seen over the last 20 years? Of, um, the development and, and growth into what this is now.

Cause I was blown away of what it is now, but I don't know what it was like, what led to it becoming this, this vibrant thing that, I mean, I'm sure it's been vibrant for many years, but you kind of know what I mean here?

**Stemage:** Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, when I, The, the convention stuff started before I, I didn't start with the, with the, the, the, the early, uh, conventions, but I did started making music about that time.

It turns out the mag fest just had its, it had its 20 year anniversary a couple of years ago. And I was a couple of years ago, it was the 20th anniversary of the first time I put my, my first Metroid metal track. On the internet. It was just, it wasn't until later that we thought we could, we could, we, my buddy is in, my local musician and gamer buddies, we decided we'd go check one of these things out.

And it re, it started, Mag specifically was the Mid Atlantic Gaming Expo. Um, I'm not exactly, exactly sure how, if it happened, uh, once without a band, but I believe there was music there from the very beginning. Early days, there were bands and groups of people that were paying homage to these old games. It was very small.

Um, it grew pretty steadily before it kind of exploded right around 2010, but you'd get, I mean, you get the variety that you get at these events. We, there were, there were rock bands. Uh, I remember when the first four string quartet showed up, Select Start, um, and blew everyone's minds because no one had seen that happen yet.

Um, and so it was just very small. It was a, it was a small, uh, small. Con with a, a fledgling con with a, it had it's vendor area, it had it's, it's video games in the, in all the different rooms, the console area, and the arcade, and all that. And then there were maybe four bands a night, or four acts, musical acts of some kind.

This is early days, you didn't see as much of the backing track thing happening. Now I think, and especially after pandemic, the solo artist thing sort of took off. So you see a lot of people playing with backing tracks. But there'd be Yeah, different bands doing their own style and doing what they do.

Some were themed, some were just playing game music from all games. And then you go, you go forward. And then I ran around, I think 2010 was the first year that they. No, it wasn't 2010. It was more like 12 or 13. They switched convention centers And then other parts of the geek scene sort of became embraced like the cosplay stuff was growing Um, they got like the like tabletop rooms and the panels became a big deal And what happened in my opinion is just that all these kids all these kids that were playing games You know as kids and weren't musicians yet That was that era and then these kids are getting like it's gone from It's gone from just a couple of rock bands to entire virtual orchestras devoted in curriculum based on this type of music.

And so what's happened is some, you know, I'm just a rocker who listened to like, you know, Rat and Warrant back in the 80s or whatever. But you have kids that are going to school and they're learning properly. They're learning to read. They're learning to play well. And they're, so you're coming, you have this next generation of people coming up that, you know, are not only great arrangers, but they're great.

Um, uh, they collab really well. They arrange really well. They, they, they read well. And so you're, you end up with like a lot more, let's call them musically educated people that are now playing in the scene, which I think offers Immediate collaboration because you have the sheets as your basis, right? And so when you if I would love for you to go to vgm con Which is what happens in april because it's basically what I call the mag fest green room It's just all the musicians that do this kind of stuff in one place.

Yeah, and everyone's got sheets up Does anyone know how to play green hill zone? No, but i'll try it and there are the sheets and it sounds fantastic And so Because of that, because of the musical education, I feel like it's just taken off. I mean, you obviously have all the guitar guys on YouTube doing what they do and what they've always done.

But I feel like there's another tier that video game music has hit. And it's mostly because kids grew up realizing that covering video game music is pretty cool. Yeah,

**Morgan:** yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Like, this is a thing that the sheets thing brought up kind of a conversation that you and I were having at the event.

Um, So when you say sheets, can you kind of describe for people what that means?

**Stemage:** Oh, I just mean reading music. I just mean reading, reading staff. Um, which I cannot do. I cannot read music. I

**Morgan:** found that fascinating.

**Stemage:** Yeah, I've, I've, I've, I mean, I don't know where, what this mean. I had several people as I was getting into the industry writing for projects and interactive media that I'm like, is this going to be a problem?

Is this, and so many people were like, no, don't, you don't need to worry about it. If you, you'll get, they'll send you midis. You, I've been arranging by ear forever. I'm one of my, uh, records from a dozen or so years ago was I, I did an arrangement album of the music from Tron, Wendy Carlos, and it's, it's very contemporary music and I learned it all by ear.

I've sort of trained myself to figure all this stuff out by ear. So I'm already in a good place to, to get there, but I just don't have that. Uh, I don't have the ability to just. Play what I see. Um, it hasn't caused me problems, but that is where, that is where I've come from. Uh, and it's different than a lot of people now, I think.

**Morgan:** Yeah. So when you collaborate, I'm curious what that looks like. If you're like, here's, here's this part. I'm cause do you have an idea where you're like, I want it to be just like this? Or you're like, eh, these chords so ish.

**Stemage:** Well, most of the, it really depends on who I'm playing with. I have, I have some buddies that I never can predict what they're going to do, but I always end up enjoying it.

And so giving them freedom and being able to, you're not really jamming in real time necessarily, but you're. I don't have anyone locally to me that plays game music, but I did. Um, and it's really just bouncing ideas back and forth. I mean, it's, it's a bit. Uh, asynchronous and sometimes it's just this person's a good player and I want them to play what I wrote the right way.

Um, sometimes it's way more collaborative and way more back and forth until you've sort of crafted more of like a band sound. It's less of a, of a single arranger and then some higher guns and more of like the band thing. Um, and that's the most fun, uh, for me. Uh, is when you get, uh, It allows you to do, I feel like the more brains, the better.

**Morgan:** Um,

**Stemage:** in, in, in, in the, in band territory. I'm not, it's not, it's not always the case. I mean, like a singular vision is important in a lot of projects, but being able to, to, to be able to have fun with ideas and stuff back and forth, I think is, is great. So it really, so it really just depends on the situation.

**Morgan:** Yeah. Yeah, totally. Um, so going back to the sheets and the, I just wanted to kind of explain for people, um, there was an entire room devoted, actually I'll have you explain devoted to jam. Um, Are you able to explain what that was? Because I found that fascinating.

**Stemage:** Yeah, and it's very different than it used to be.

So now, um, there are services and apps that could just pull up sheet music from a database of video game, uh, for, for different instruments from games. I'm not exactly how thorough it is for some games, but, um, there's a jam space. And you have the ability to, if you play an instrument, you can just hang out and wait.

And if there's an opening or someone calls out a song, you might know, you can just go up and play it with people. Um, I will say, and now you have the, the sheet music to kind of support that. And if you're a drummer and you just know that, know the song, go up and jam. No big deal. Uh, it used to be, Jam Space was very different.

Jam Space used to be more like what it sounds like, where it was like a guy would get on stage and play Like AC, DC, while a drummer is over in the corner, sort of playing to himself. It was a bit, it was a bit, it was a bit kind of insane, but then every once in a while, someone would start playing Castlevania and someone else in the room would know it'd be like, Oh, hold on, you know, hop on stage, what keys that in?

And then, and then the drummer could get on. And so you'd, you basically would find common ground with a soundtrack you might know, and then just go. And sometimes you're just playing, you know, the same verse for. You know, a couple of minutes. Um, but now it's just, it's, I won't say it's a lot more organized, but I'll say that for the people that, Are able to just, to just, uh, to read quickly.

Um, you can just get up and play with anybody. Um, and it's really fun. It's it's, and they also do things where some bands that don't have the chance to play on the main stage or side stage can get together and play like three songs or something on stage. If you schedule it yourself, right. Give you a chance to get up and play what you've arranged without having to worry about, you know, keeping up with everyone else.

If you and a few friends put something together. Um, You can do that. That's cool.

**Morgan:** Yeah. I thought that was interesting. First of all, you'd see people perform and we'll get to performances in a bit, but, um, there were people who were like rocking the stage, like totally up there being like superstars and then they'd be over in the jams, like these, they played constantly, whether they were performing or jamming didn't matter to them.

Just let me get my hands on my keys or whatever it was. Um, yeah, there's your faces there. That was pretty cool.

**Stemage:** Yeah. There's a lot of like, uh, There are a lot of guys that just play all the time and they'll, they'll hop over and they know everything. And they, you know, so it's easy for them to just kind of play everywhere.

There, there are certain people in the scene that are very familiar faces. This guy, Robbie Benson, who you've probably have been made familiar of. He, he's an, he started a band called super, super soul bros, like, I don't know, 12 years ago at this point, he's a Bay area native, but he also, uh, had like Robbie and friends at the pool, which is basically this guy with.

Two key, two keyboards, one playing chords and leads and one playing the bass. So he doesn't need a bass player. And he's just, he's so, um, he can just acclimate to anything. He can transpose in two seconds. He just, he doesn't even know what he's playing. He's just like we were talking about, he just sort of, It's, it's so deep in his brain that he's, it's unable for him to describe exactly how he approaches his voicings and stuff, but he's so good that he can play with anyone and he can also enable people.

So if someone knows a song, he'd be like, go ahead, start, you know, then you hear, and he's like, oh, okay, we're Mario, we're jazz, I'm following you. And so he's, he's like glue, you know what I mean? He's gluing these people together that otherwise would just be walking around with their flute. Not knowing who to play with.

So, um, but yeah, there's a, there'll, when you go to these events, you'll see a few faces a lot and I'm glad that they're there because they do help kind of foster. Uh, new talent too. They, they aren't just getting in the way, you know, they're trying to help people.

**Morgan:** Yeah, I, I did see that, that act and that was interesting because he was playing keys and then he'd, he'd step off keys too.

And he let someone else play keys for a while. Um, he was just kind of everywhere and the band, you know, it really is. And friends, it just was fluctuating. Like people, someone would come up and leave and someone else would come up. Yep. Um, so. Who would you say, overall, like, what type of people do you typically see participating in this, and is, is, are the people who participate at the con level the same people that are known throughout the scene in, like, the

who Online or other spaces.

**Stemage:** Yeah. So, I mean, you know, we're talking a lot about it from the musicians perspective, but I mean, people just go to this thing. They just, they go to absorb it all. They may not play instruments. I ended up being surrounded with a lot of the music people because it's, it's just who I've known for the last, however many years.

Um, but I also see tons of buddies too. My wife has been to the big mag fest, uh, twice and had a great time. She's a, she's not a video game person at all, but she's a big music lover. So she loves seeing the stranger acts. She enjoyed going to like, um, like the DJ and chip rave stuff because it's so high energy and crazy and fun.

Um, she's always, always about seeing anything, anything different. Um, and so I mean, it depends on which event you're going to, but if you're just a lover of music, it's my dad went to two years to my dad. My 72 year old father was like, I need to, he retired. He's like, I need to see what this is all about.

So we're like, okay, Papa Henry, let's go. We're going to mag fest. And he went. And he just disappeared. He's gone. He doesn't check his phone very well. He's just off. So I don't know where he went. And they're like, where's your dad? Like, I have no idea. I don't even know where he is. I have no idea. He came back.

He had CDs. He's like, I saw Seori Kobayashi, the composer of Panzer Dragoon, play her set and she was amazing. So I bought her album. Like he just, so he's just a lover of music and I feel like that's all you need. Really to enjoy yourself. It helps if you know a game or two, I think, but if you just want to see people play, you know, and have a good time, uh, it's, it's, it's pretty infectious.

You probably felt that too. I mean, you're a musician, but you can tell everyone, everyone's just sort of happy to be there.

**Morgan:** Yeah. Yeah. I mean, so this event we met at was mag West, which.

**Stemage:** Yes.

**Morgan:** I, um, totally did not realize was Mid Atlantic Gaming Expo. I, I thought it was Music and Gaming Expo. Well, that's

**Stemage:** sort of, that's sort of the, what the nomenclature changed into pretty quickly because the shows were kind of a, it was a home base for a lot of musicians to show up and play.

Yeah. So it sort of became the Music and Gaming Expo. But that's not, that's not where the acronym started, believe it or not. So,

**Morgan:** yeah, yeah. Well, this one was the California version. Um, I, yeah, it was interesting because there's like so many layers and layers and layers, because for me, I come as a musician, so I kind of know, I can tell, um, you know, when people are like totally rocking it, I have an idea of musically, like,

what's going on? But then there's like the the video game nerd level Seems to go down down down like someone would be performing and then the whole audience would just start laughing and I'm like Oh, there was some easter egg in there that I didn't catch because I don't have the the depth of knowledge of the games So it seems like, like, no matter how far down the rabbit hole you went, there was something there, like, for you.

**Stemage:** Yeah, the people that I've made go to these things that know the music of Daytona, USA, When they, when Daytona comes on, they're happy. But even if, even if it, they don't know it, it's still like Japanese jazz fusion from the nineties. You know what I mean? So, so it, you know, if you don't get all the Easter eggs, you can still appreciate what you're watching.

Even, even if you have no idea exactly what's going on. I mean, this, this, the, the, the, they'll do themed years. So this was persona, uh, was the theme of the smeg West. I've never touched a persona game. I know it's a lot of like jazz funk stuff. I had a lot of vocals. And I enjoyed what I heard. Didn't know a single song, but it was like, that's a perfect example.

It's like, I, I got when it's Sonic year or Metroid year, I'm, I'm on point with my references, but otherwise I have no, I have no idea what's going on, but it was still fun to watch, you know?

**Morgan:** Yeah. Yeah. Uh, the other thing that struck me that I'd love for you to speak on is, um, the variety of like you were, we've mentioned a couple of genres, but the variety of genre in video game music is vast there.

So not only are we have, I mean, we're talking like everything from power metal to like jazz and swing.

**Stemage:** Yeah, um,

**Morgan:** and people would cover again, some of these games are like MIDI. Uh, people would cover these songs in both those genres and everything in between. So can you speak a little, first of all, have you done that? Like what type, what have you had fun with as far as, uh, your covers go? And then also like, what are some of the, the range? Can you just speak to the range of styles that people are doing?

**Stemage:** Yeah, I mean. There was one event where, back to back, it was something like You know, it was like Vidaria String Quartet, which is a great quartet out of Boston. MegaRan, who is a hip hop, or they call, they call, I don't know if they call all rap nerdcore in the, in the nerd music scene, but most of it is nerd, it's kind of, it started years ago.

So you got a rap group. And then you've got like hip hop group and then you got like power glove, which is basically what you described power metal. It's like guys with, you know, like, uh, the kind of Guar ask latex outfits on, you know, playing speed metal and like, what other venue are you going to hear?

**Morgan:** Yeah. A

**Stemage:** quartet, a rap group, and a power metal group back to back. Um, and a lot of the same people are there, which is also interesting. You know, sometimes you laugh when you look at the bill for a show and you're like, those bands don't really go that well together. But if you think about it, they've done their research and it's actually the same audience.

Either from the same time period in history or whatever. It's the same, it's a very similar thing here. So yeah, you really I, every time there's an event that comes up, I try to do a little research and figure out what the new acts are like, because I just have no idea what I'm going to expect, you know, I want to make sure to catch what I want to catch.

So, I don't, I've never really seen anything like that, like I, it, maybe it exists somewhere, but the, the nerd, the nerd music, Thing is tying these acts together.

**Morgan:** Yeah,

**Stemage:** and then on my side, I mean, I don't know I've done I The Metroid metal thing is the biggest thing I've done, but I try to get strange with it, too I very different variations of rock in some form.

I've done some funky stuff But I haven't done any I've not really done any Arrangements for like I haven't done much symphonic stuff. I've done some electronic stuff But most of that has been music songs for games A lot of electronic music for games, but with the game covers I've almost always stuck with the guitar stuff because I I feel like one day I'll end up probably doing it live Um, and I don't like, you know, and I'm just enjoy playing guitar.

So I, it's almost always something guitar based.

**Morgan:** Yeah. Yeah. Um, so a couple of things related to styles. Um, there were some interesting instruments too, that I have, I've heard of, but had never actually seen outside of this scene. So there was, again, I totally agree. I don't think I've ever been to an event where.

You could see the mashup of styles. Um, and even within that, there were, um, like the Iwi, I could probably, I should probably have someone who plays Iwi on here because, um, that, you know, that's an entire instrument that you just don't see anywhere else. I don't, I have not seen anywhere else. Um,

**Stemage:** I, I I've seen it in, it, it was, it was a bigger deal in Japan in the early days.

Like, like the Rippington's like elevator music, jazz, like, uh, um, comfort jazz, you might call it. I don't know. You, you, you see it a lot there and I don't know, at some point it seemed to infiltrate, um, the video game music stuff. And now I think EWI is just more popular in general. I feel like you see.

You see electronic saxophones, like everyone has a model. They're all cheap on, on Amazon and everything. So people are entering that quicker. Yeah. It's amazing. There, there are a number of bands that use them. I don't know how many you saw, but I feel like every horn player at these, these events has at least touched one or has it laying, laying around somewhere.

Yeah. It's a lot of fun because at least you can, uh, you can play all kinds of different instruments with that, right? It's not just, it's not just your horn. You can do whatever you want. You can put it through a synth or like we saw with one group, you could use it as a vocoder and you could sing into a microphone.

**Morgan:** That was, yeah. You can

**Stemage:** scat into a mic and then play the notes of your iwi to pitch your voice. Which I've never seen before.

**Morgan:** Uh, and, and for folks, basically an EWI is like a, a programmable and maybe help me out here.

It's like a programmable, um, it's a programmable instrument looks sort of like a recorder almost, except there's keys instead. Yes. Um,

**Stemage:** It's electronic wind instrument is essentially, and it is a, it, it, it looks similar to a recorder or I guess a clarinet, but I'm not actually sure what the buttons button layout is, but I know sax guys pick it up real quick.

Yeah. So I bet I'm not exactly sure how it works. There's an octave control on there and everything else. Um, and you do blow into it. You blow into

**Morgan:** it, which is crazy, but then it also, um, yeah, you can, from my understanding, you can program all kinds of different sounds, like whatever you want, it's, it's a.

It's a computer. Uh, and you beat boop that you want it to make. You can, they're built

**Stemage:** in, but you can also run it into a brain and play any MIDI, any MIDI instrument with it. You could probably, you could sing, you can sing another wind instrument if you want, or you could, or you could play like a, just a simple wave form, or you could probably, you know, you could do all kinds of stuff.

I think it's, I don't know. It probably works best with, um, instruments that don't have a lot of attack, I assume, but I don't really know. Never played with one. I, I

**Morgan:** don't know. That was interesting. Um, and keytar too, like I've seen it in like, you know, guitar hero, rock band, but, but actual serious keytar players, people laugh, but like there were some legit like,

**Stemage:** yeah, serious,

**Morgan:** uh, keytar.

Yeah. And that's another one where you can program the sound. So people are getting really creative merging the digital with the, um, the live aspect of, of playing. Um,

**Stemage:** Yeah, I feel like, I feel like the, the keytar, keytar never really goes away. It just kind of, it just kind of hangs out up and down over the years.

And right now it seems to be a fever pitch, uh, which is great. Lacey Johnson, I don't know if you saw her, but she, she's got this one that looks like a battle ax. Like it's just, it

**Morgan:** looks

**Stemage:** like, it looks like you could just whip it up and. Knock, knock someone down with it. But yeah, she's fantastic. And she came from, uh, classical music.

She came, she was, she studied, uh, a lot of piano and has a great voice and, um, has landed into rock stardom at the moment.

**Morgan:** Yeah. Well, let's, let's talk about her. So her act was interesting to me too. Um, This podcast has turned into me sharing thoughts about magwes with you. That's great. Well, I mean This

**Stemage:** is this is this is how we met and I do find it interesting because you come from a different world than I do But we ended up at this event together and have a lot we can relate on Yeah, and I find that all the time.

I think that's I think that's a that's fascinating crossroads, you know um, and I love hearing your uh, I'm sure listeners like hearing your perspective on this weirdo event. I love seeing people's reactions, especially musician reactions to their first time coming. Sometimes people go and it's not quite their thing, but I feel like musicians almost always come out going like, wow, I, there's some players, not every band is your cup of tea, but there's some players in there that like the best musicians I know personally.

Are involved in this scene, um, best guitar players, best drummers. Um,

**Morgan:** I saw some keyboard that blew my mind. Like, like we were talking about the guy earlier. Um, he, he, He was amazing. He was up there with some of the top jazz guys I've ever seen. Yeah.

**Stemage:** Yeah. It's incredible. I wish they could, wish they could get a camera on his hand so you can see it's audience can actually see what his left and right hands are doing independently of each other.

Yeah. Um, he's, he's a monster.

**Morgan:** Okay. I need a moment here. I've got some things to say. First of all, I want you all to take a moment to understand how incredibly awesome Stemage is. I mean, his last project was for Disney, how legit is that. And when he casually mentioned he's done some stuff for television. Do you know what that was?

He was the guitar player and co composer for the Emmy nominated show Steven universe. I am really picky about the kinds of animated shows I enjoy watching. And Steven universe is one of my absolute favorites. So there's some total fan girling happening here. I could go on, but just go to his website because I also want to comment that in my first ever conversation with this incredibly talented musician. Which we also touched on a little bit here.

We talked about him not being able to read the sheets in the jams. Now, when he says sheets, he's referring to like lead sheets, the melody is written out and there's cords either above or below, like a fake book. I couldn't participate in a jam without those, but look how far he's come without being able to read music.

And I love that because it really emphasizes how awesome music is that someone like me who was completely dependent on the sheets. And someone like him, who they might as well be in an alien language can still connect and probably even play together. I love it. If you're enjoying this conversation, please take a moment to like Zach guys radio on Facebook and Instagram, or if you're really loving it, you can sign up for my newsletter on my website at site Geist, academy.com/radio. I send out content weekly about cool things I learned from my guests.

That's Z E I T G E I S T academy. Dot com slash radio. All right, let's get back to stem image.

**Morgan:** But going back to Lacey. So what was interesting to me about her act. Is the use of backing tracks. You kind of touched on this earlier. Um, she was, she was a single performer vocals and switching off between guitar and keytar. Um, but she had a whole, I mean, basically like a full.

Rock band sound behind her. Um, there's no one else on stage. This was all done by backing track. How common is that? Have you, you mentioned that maybe you've seen a rise in it lately. Um, and do you know anything about what goes into an act like that? Cause that was really interesting.

**Stemage:** Yeah, um, I mean, a lot of it can come from a few different places.

One, some people are just really good at, um, writing songs end to end and handling all the instrumentation themselves. They may not need a drummer, they may not need, um, uh, uh, other instrumentalists because they can handle it all themselves. They're producers and they can just write the song beginning to end.

And if there's an instrument in there that's interesting to watch or fun to play, All you got to do is strip that instrument out and then you can play it for people, right? You can play it live. And then if you're running off a laptop, your audio software might support video and you can whip up videos for yourself.

So you end up with a bit more of a show.

**Morgan:** Yeah, it was a full show.

**Stemage:** Yeah, a full show. So she's done, you know, she's been writing or, um, she, she was in a band, uh, that I, some guys I know down in Southern California called Super Madness and, and it was, uh, came in as a key player in that band and then just kept writing her own stuff, doing her own arrangements and getting better and better, playing way, way more guitar.

Um, and then just, you know, at some, and then she is also a great vocalist, right? So for a, for a solo act, if you can whip out some vocals, that's always fun too. Um, and she just has a fantastic voice. So she's got a, and she's got good style and a lot of zazz, right? That's the wrong word. She'll kill me for saying zazz.

I'll say it anyway, Lacey. Um, but she, so when you have all that, you can play a show. Now there's a lot of pressure. To do that because you're the only one up there. I'm actually doing it next weekend. I'm in, I'm in near Chicago doing it. I did a bunch before the pandemic. I finally decided to take some Stemage arrangements that I've never done with a band before.

And I'm like, I should just play this live by myself. So I, I found the old tracks and I. Remixed them a little bit, figured, you know, learned my own songs all over again. And then, and then did some shows and then pandemic hit and that all went away. And I haven't done anything, uh, since then since, um, until next weekend.

So I'm doing that. And it's a similar thing. I've got my, my backing videos. I'm not a video producer. So it's normally either a gameplay footage or something funny, something engaging. Uh, a couple parts and some songs. I have guests. Um, instrumentalists that play on those songs, uh, one song has my buddy Dan Taylor playing bass.

So it's like Dan, would you record yourself? Would you record this part again, and then record your, videotape yourself playing it too? He said sure, so he did it, and so in that moment in the song, on the screen, Dan shows up and is actually playing what you're hearing. Uh, and it's a fun excuse to turn around surprised, because there's someone live on the screen.

Like, first time I did that, someone had thought, some guy at the bar was like, Like, did he really Skype in for that? Did he call in? I said, no, it's a video. I mean, yeah, he did. Totally. He did. Um, so, you know, you, you have to get a little creative, but you know, as long as you're for, if I, I'm, I don't consider myself a big performer generally.

I I've, I've played a lot of shows, but I'm still not comfortable up there, but I'm comfortable enough that I can handle a show by myself. And, and, and it's a weird mix of, um, being a control freak. It's nice to have that amount of control. You don't have to deal with anyone else, breaking strings, everyone's going to show up on time, you know, that kind of thing.

Um, your band costs less money to book. Like, there's a lot of things about being a solo artist that is cool. But then again, all eyes are on you, so it's higher pressure, you know? Yeah, totally. And a lot of pieces of technology that have to all work correctly, you know? What kind of output, what kind of inputs do they have?

Is there an HDMI drop at the stage so I can plug my laptop in and have videos and, you Oh, the screen's not behind me. It's way over there. So they're going to watch that. They're going to watch over to the side instead of, well, you know, there's things like that, but there are lots of people that do it.

And I feel like it has kicked up when the pandemic hit and everyone was sort of to themselves. A lot of that. I feel like a lot of people started putting that kind of stuff together. They were either writing a lot and trying to figure out how to handle stuff live. Uh, and then the technology got figured out.

And so you see less bands because of it. It's not easy to find a bunch of people to play your stuff.

**Morgan:** Yeah, it's definitely a niche. Let's briefly touch on the opposite of the solo act. Another thing that was super interesting. I've, I really loved this, this merging of, uh, technology and live performance.

That's not something I see very often other than, you know, distortion and guitars or that type of thing,

**Stemage:** Yeah.

**Morgan:** But, um, but like computer. Mixing with these live, live things. Um, the opposite of the solo act with the backing track would be the virtual orchestra. Can you share about that project a little bit and, and where that came from and then what it turned into, at least at this event?

**Stemage:** Oh, you know, I just, I know so little about it. I know little, I don't know a lot about, like, they had one, it was called VVGO, Virtual Video Game Orchestra. My understanding is that there are a number of people that are in the area that are a part of some sort of, um, local chapter that does something, but they also open it up to a lot of people that want to have a place in the orchestra.

I don't know if it's just for recording. Purposes, but in this case it was for live performance. So they had a lot of different types of music, which means that a lot of people were kind of leaving the stage and, you know, coming on and going off depending on the size of the group they needed. But, um, I've seen this, this is, this is not the first like this.

There, there are, there are several. And basically it's just about, it's about it. Someone is spearheading this thing. It's about getting parts organized and assigning them correctly. And then for obvi, obviously for the YouTube videos, the showcase. Mm-Hmm. People are recording their parts and they're video videoing themselves doing that.

And then occasionally there's the opportunity to get together and do this stuff. And it's one of the reasons these events are so important because this is the, this is the place to do your show. Like at a video game, music event is where obviously you would do that. Um, there've been bigger events like that at, at mag fast and, uh, Other ones like video games live that, you know, date back 15, 20 years or whatever.

But I w I don't know all the details of it. I, I, I just know that they've existed in several different forms. This is my first exposure to this one and their performance. Um, But boy, I bet it's a lot to organize.

**Morgan:** I, yeah. I mean, it's a full orchestra.

**Stemage:** Yeah.

**Morgan:** Well, it can be a full orchestra. There were also like wind ensemble.

There's a flute group. Um,

**Stemage:** and they had additional, much more classical. Yeah. And they had a trap percussionist. They had drummer. They had like several, several different keyboards, depending on who was needed to, to be, to be featured on a particular track. So they, they had room for, gosh, I feel like they had, they had enough for everybody.

I'm sure everyone's bringing their own instruments. Luckily. They had

**Morgan:** enough. Seats for probably 70 people to perform.

**Stemage:** Yeah. Yeah. It was wild. I, and in a room that isn't really built for it, it was sort of started on the stage, spilled onto the floor and then everyone sort of sat on the side on the

**Morgan:** sides.

Yeah,

**Stemage:** it was really cool. I mean, it ended up, I thought it was really, it was very intimate and it's a good chance. I mean, you never know. Some of these people maybe have never. They may not have, maybe they hadn't played band in school. Maybe that's not where they came from. And maybe this is some of their first performances.

I actually don't know. And maybe this is the hundredth for some of them. Yeah, I don't know, but it does, it does sort of set like a, it sets a level playing field for, um, Let's just say this isn't conservatory, right?

**Morgan:** Right.

**Stemage:** I mean, you're not, I think you're more likely to be told you did a good job at this show than you would at conservatory.

Totally. No one says good

**Morgan:** job at conservatory. I know.

**Stemage:** I've had so many conversations with people that, like the Videri String Quartet, good friends of mine, uh, Rosie's amazing over there and she would be a great person to talk to about this. . I remember hearing her talk about like the reactions at the early MAGFest.

It was like, and same with select start back in the, in 2010, people started holy shit chance after one of their songs. And like, You don't know how to react to something like that. If you're a rock and roller, you're like, Hey, this is a dream come true. Otherwise you don't really, it's not, that's not what's supposed to happen.

Um, and I think like, I know that eventually Rosie sort of fell in love with the more rock and roll attitude about the way video game music is treated. But for people that come from conservatory, it's a completely different thing. Um, some probably say it's a bad thing, but we don't, we don't talk to those people.

Uh, I don't at least, but. I just, I just really, I'm really happy for all these guys that get to come and play, um, and not feel the pressure. I mean, you got to bring your A game because that's the whole, you know, you got to see that you're supposed to do that. But

**Morgan:** yeah,

**Stemage:** I think the welcoming environment is encouraging as long, as long as there's constructive criticism and stuff too.

I mean, it still has to happen. It's education. That's what this is all about. But, um, Yeah, well, the

**Morgan:** orchestra was interesting to me because that's my background is classical or like my, my, I got my start classical and this was like, it just drove home like this is really for everybody. It doesn't matter what you play.

You know, you could play classical flute in high school orchestra. And as long as you kept your chops up like, you know, this is a place where you can come and they threw that together in like one rehearsal, which is for an orchestra. Yeah. That's unheard of. You don't.

**Stemage:** My, my, my friend Darmok, she came from Baltimore.

She played bass, like actual five string bass. There was a guitar player there. I mean, everyone, you're

**Morgan:** actually, I

**Stemage:** didn't really think about that. They didn't make room for everybody. Something was figured out for everyone involved.

**Morgan:** Yeah. Um,

**Stemage:** it'd be fun to, to learn a little bit more about the, the, the deep dive into that, that process, because it sounds like work,

**Morgan:** it sounds like a lot of work

**Stemage:** and it's, uh, and it's relying on a lot of people to, to

you know, to bring the game.

**Morgan:** Yeah. You

**Stemage:** know, I

**Morgan:** mean, yeah, absolutely. Um, I'd like to shift gears a little bit into how much do you know about the relationships between the composers and these, um, performing groups? , I mean, some of these, these bands that you've mentioned, um, Um, they play exclusively video game music.

, how much interaction do the composers of the music in the games have with the scene? Do you see them around? Do they go to these events or are they kind of their own thing?

**Stemage:** That's a great question. Um, a lot of them are around. Uh, they'll show up either because they're just going or they're guests, you know, to do panels or, or what have you.

Um, I'm in a group called Super Strikers and we're the house band for a record label called BraveWave. And BraveWave's, uh, initiative was to go Cause one of the guys in Bravely was in Japan. He's in Tokyo. He approached all these Japanese composers from the eighties that worked for Capcom, work for Nintendo.

And they wrote these amazing soundtracks that people adore. Castlevania, Mega Man, all that stuff. And, and, and make, you know, back then it was just a job. They just worked and it was all work for hire. They don't own any of that music. You know, it's all work for hire. They go, and then they go on to the next job.

They own the next gig and they're happy. They're fine. But people, a lot of these people did not realize the amount of love for this old music. And so Brave Wave's goal has been to get them out of retirement, get them to write some songs, get them to write some jams, um, and record them and release records and EPs and stuff like that.

And it's worked really well. Like, um, Monami Matsume who did, um, the original Mega Man and UN Squadron and other stuff. She, she's released a few things with them. Keiji Yamagishi who did Ninja Gaiden and Tecmo Bowl. Uh, he's released some stuff and then some of them have actually been able to come to the States and actually see their music performed, which is, which is amazing.

That's all, that's, you know, so these guys, you know, some don't want anything to do with it anymore. Some are done and they've moved on and they've, they don't want to write a song again because I can't imagine the associations they have with the music areas of their life when it's just being owned by their name isn't even in the credits.

It's all like pen names and stuff, but, and so, but now, I mean, you, you've got, you've always got guest composers come in and you've got. They, most all of them seem to be really receptive to, um, to, to hearing them and, and, and, and learning about them. And then every once in a while, you'll have. Um, a situation where a composer will actually be a part of the performance.

Uh, Frank Klepacki did this soundtrack for Command and Conquer. Well, the, I think you saw them, but Tiberian Sons, the kind of metal, okay. Tiberian Sons, years ago, Tony, the main guy in Tiberian Sons, wrote Frank Klepacki and said, hey, I did a cover of your Command and Conquer. Uh, a couple of Command and Conquer tracks, you know, I wanted you to check them out.

Story is something like this. Frank really liked it. And then they sort of kept in touch and Frank said, Hey, I want to get a band together to do Command and Conquer. I want to, I want to come back. Frank wanted to come back out and put a show on with, uh, use, like reviving that old music that he wrote and Tiberian Sons was his backing band.

And they played this explosive event at MAGFest and they ended up going to, um, Uh, I think they went to Prague and played in Prague for the show. So like, again, different levels, some, some composers have nothing to do with any of this stuff. Um, some are big shots that would probably never show up. Some are like, are wild that people would be interested at all.

Um, some are in bands. Yeah. Yeah. Long answer, but well, yeah. And I imagine some

**Morgan:** Some for future games are getting started now here. Like,

**Stemage:** yeah. Who knows? Hey, who knows? Yeah. You just got,

**Morgan:** you got a pretty big gig just now. You got your pinball.

**Stemage:** Yes, I did. Who

**Morgan:** knows where that could go.

**Stemage:** That's true. That's true.

We'll see.

**Morgan:** . Um, feel free to, uh, shut down this question if, if, if it's not, uh, it's not, not a good thing to talk about, but a lot of people, a lot of these bands also release albums and stuff like that. I was wondering how the heck copyright works with that. I can't imagine Nintendo's cool with that.

**Stemage:** Yeah. If the, if a game has the main rule, the blanket rule is if a game soundtrack has been released in the States in some form, then you can license it very easily for distribution. If it hasn't, you have to get permission from the copyright holder. So that's just sort of how it works. And the rules have changed a little bit because, um, things that complicated with medleys, things that complicated with songs over six minutes Um, but as long as you, as long as you, uh, can acquire the license for the track, it can be easily done.

And there's tons of services that handle it for you. They just take a cut for the, they take a cut to send to the license holder for your covers. Um, if you can't license it and you do it anyway, then it's just sort of on you. Sure. You know, you're, it's just at your own risk, really. Yeah. Um, but that's sort of how it works.

It's pretty straightforward. And there are a lot of cases where people do get permissions from the, from the, um, from the companies and they're, and then there's, it's either collaborative or one off or whatever. Yeah. Yeah. Um, but that's sort of how it works. That's sort of how, that's, that's the simple way.

That's cool. So as long as you're not going to Prague,

**Morgan:** it's

**Stemage:** fine. I don't know. I mean, I don't know what, I don't know how it works in Prague. I don't know how anything works in Prague. Yeah, because, uh,

**Morgan:** again, and like a lot of cover bands deal with that. Um, and a lot of them have to register.

Is it, is it BMI and ASCAP? Is it the same governing organizations or is it different for video game music? I have no idea.

**Stemage:** Um. Um, I imagine that it gets a little complicated when you look into, um, performance rights organizations in like Europe, like GEMA. Things get weird there. I mean, I don't know exactly how the, I don't know how they're getting paid, but I assume that's how it's going.

Because the certain people who wanting to release the song would essentially pay one of the distributors. Uh, Yeah. A fee to do the licensing at that point. It's on them because it's essentially been done and then you can only run on the assumption that they are taking care of all that. All those payments, uh, wherever they're supposed to go.

And I assume at that point, it's like, it's, it's gotta be pro level. It's gotta be, it's gotta be BMI or S cap or something. Yeah, that's what

**Morgan:** I would, I would guess. Nintendo would work with a large organization like that, but I, I don't know if it's even Okay. under the same umbrella.

**Stemage:** Yeah. I mean, that's a great, that's a lot of

**Morgan:** albums for sale and I bought several and

**Stemage:** I

**Morgan:** was just curious.

**Stemage:** Yeah. I mean, again, if the music has been released in the States in some form, then it's, it's fair game, Nintendo included. So, and outside of that, it's just a matter of, of whatever agreement is struck up. Right. Um, a lot of bands are just going to make CDs no matter what. Yeah. And, and so that's kind of where, you know, so then, you know, and that's, that's weird territory.

I mean, playing cover songs live is technically not allowed period. I mean, really, like if someone wanted to come after you for playing their cover song live at a bar, they could, they

**Morgan:** could, they

**Stemage:** don't normally, cause it's not like an, it's a, it's a difficult thing to enforce. I remember, I remember, uh, what was the guy, the wrestling guy system of a down said, let's get ready to rumble at one of their shows.

And he came after him hard and they had to initial, uh, issue an apology for that. So, hey. If you can get, you know, if no one wants to come after you, they do, but cover bands normally don't get that kind of flack because like, I guess I'm talking to outside video game stuff, you know, cover bands in general are not paying licenses for their 12 songs they played at a show.

Um, but then you, but you have to pay attention to this. Do you gotta be careful? Um, well, and again, the reason,

**Morgan:** the reason I'm asking is it's not like some of these guys were, and I say guys that was all, all genders. Um, some of these folks were, uh, like Tiberian sons. Like, legit, you know, and you've mentioned several that have been around since 2010, 2012.

Um, I mean, these are, these are serious bands that take their craft seriously. I went to some panels on how they're putting their music together and it is complicated and, um, and very cool. And, um, it's, it's not like they're just getting together on the weekends and, you know, and, you know, Playing some stuff for their friends or at the little no, no, it's high albums are on Spotify.

They're all over.

**Stemage:** Yep. Yeah, production value. Yeah. And they and people pay attention to, to, to what is licensable and what is not when they're if they're, if they're doing it seriously like this. Yeah, then it's all about, um, There are a lot of artists that have made videos about this. Like how, you know, I've wanted to do this track, but it's not licensable.

So I'm not bothering. Cause they want to be able to, they want to be able to monetize it. Cause it's going to be popular. Well, and it's a lot of,

**Morgan:** it's a lot of work. They should.

**Stemage:** Yeah, exactly. It's a ton of work and they're trying to do it professionally and seriously. Then, yeah, you have to go through the motions for that for sure.

**Morgan:** I want to touch really quick on, um, again, shifting gears here, but I want to touch on what goes through your head. Let's switch over to you as a composer. Um, like let's take, for example, the, the pinball project. Um, what I've picked up is video game music has to be catchy enough to be interesting, but not catchy enough that It will get stuck in your head and annoying when you're playing the same level over and over and over because you keep dying in the game.

**Stemage:** You're hired. That's basically, that's a lot of it.

**Morgan:** Um, what types of things like that, like, do you take into account when you were putting this project together or other projects, um, in the past where, um, Um, You have to consider gameplay and it has to be kind of loopable, right? Cause you don't know how long people will be playing any certain level.

Um, but also not short enough that again, it gets annoying to listen to. How do you manage all of that? And are there things that I haven't even mentioned that you would take into account?

**Stemage:** Oh, that's a huge deal.

I mean, it really is like a, um, it's a fine line. I think like I've, I've found that.

I've had to learn in the last several years to not be so notey. Like, when I, I like writing complicated music, I like listening to complicated music. Yeah. I like, I love going strange places quarterly. But if you do that in a video game, you're, you're telling people you're doing that, right? You're not just writing something.

You're, you're, it really depends on what you are expect, what kind of reaction you're expecting to get out of the player. If you want to surprise them, then you should. But if you're just wanting to create. If you're just trying to fill space, if you, you know, and create a vibe, maybe that vibe has a shuffle beat in it, who knows, but you got to do something that sounds like you got it.

You got to write a track that the loop doesn't need to be super obvious. It doesn't need to ramp back before it starts ideally. Um, you know, it's, uh, and then again, sometimes the music should be the focus. Um, it really just depends for like, for the avatar project. It was very, for the pinball project. It was weird.

Cause we, I knew I was trying to basically, I mean, we're creating, they call it a world under glass and pinball. Okay. Have you seen a new pinball machine, but it's like a light show. It's it's crazy. High production. This is James Horner. Uh, soundtrack. This is, this is like, this is Avatar. This is like, uh, the first two notes of my heart will go on, but then the rest of the theme is different.

This is like, that I learned when I was doing research. You know, you gotta sound like, you gotta sound like, it has to sound like it belongs.

**Morgan:** Right.

**Stemage:** In the world, right? But I, we, we didn't just use the music for you. I, we, we, we licensed his, his main melody from the film. And then I went, I went off from there.

I was like, here, this is what I got. I can do all kinds of things with it. I can put it in play. I can ape exactly what his theme is in spots. I can make it minor. I can get strange with it. I could stretch it out. I could play it backwards. No, it'll know, but I could do that. They might notice something's familiar.

Who knows? Um, but then you just go and then, and then, um, you know, I, I tried to inject a lot of my own sensibilities in this, in this too, and there's some stuff with like, I don't know if you've seen Avatar, but things glow. And then there's a lot of like, there's some eclipse stuff going on. There's stuff underwater.

So I got to get kind of strange with things. And then for multi balls, I really wanted to amp up the energy. So it's even a little more intense than the movie even gets a little bit, I think. But I, in the end I had to stay on brand. I had to get a lot. I mean, forget like. Conceptually, I had to get music approved, right, through Disney.

Disney has to go and go, and go, think we're okay. Um, and I did have to change some things. They, they would say, like, uh, this Banshee theme sounds not as victorious as I think. It sounds like you're flying through the air, but it's not quite victorious. And so I just went, bloop, bloop, made it in major scale.

All of a sudden, the hero's flying, you know, things like that, and it ended up being okay. But, uh, for that, it was, uh, it was terrifying and, and, and a bit challenging, but it wasn't, it wasn't too bad, but I was also working off reference material where we know what the world is, right. Sometimes it's, um, it's difficult to figure out what they're supposed to be there when it's like a blank sheet of paper, you know, um, and that's, and that's almost something that you have to work with the rest of the team on.

Like if there's a, if there's a game director or a game designer, What are we wanting to do here? You know, what, what do we want to make it feel like? I did this, I did this card game called card of darkness. That was for apple arcade. And the art was done by the Pendleton Ward who worked on adventure time.

So if you don't familiar with adventure time, it's very, very round edges, very flat colors, very colorful, bubbly, a little irreverent, but you know, it looks like a cartoon. So I started writing this happy music and the guy was like, this is, it's like, this, this game is so hard. It is deceptively brutal and we don't want people to feel at ease.

In this game, we want people to be a bit off, go, go more minor. And I was like, I never would have known that. You know what I mean? If the, but I was told this, and then we went for a completely different, different direction. And it's like, it's bittersweet, dark, like it's darker than it was supposed to be, but we got there.

Um, and it's, I, it's my favorite thing I've done, uh, that soundtrack, because it, it's just such a, I won't say it doesn't go with the art, but it's a nice dissonance there. Yeah. Um, so finding the sound is hard and trying not to be distracting. When you're playing a card game, all you're doing is listening to loops.

**Morgan:** Yeah.

**Stemage:** So, you know, just, just playing around until you find something that is, is, um, You know, and for for card games, it's different because you're not really doing anything, so it's kind of nice to have a motif or a melody. It's kind of nice to have something going, uh, all the time. I would put the put the same loop end to end and listen to the transition and always notice that there was a transition and then try to smooth it out, make it almost sound like it wasn't going to change.

Stay where I am. So, so you never really know where you are in the loop. That's super important. Um, I don't know. I don't even know what the original question was. No,

**Morgan:** no, that was exactly the, the question. Um, things to consider. Um, another thing that I heard at a, someone say at a panel is during, um, certain, especially during first boss fights, Uh, throwing, playing with time signatures and being really, Um, Not, not falling into any kind of meter that can be counted easily because it throws the player like the player is trying.

They're often dying and dying. Well, it depends on this particular game. Hades was, um, a rough first boss fight. And you're dying and dying and , when, when the, when you do the scene over again, you start to learn the boss's moves and what they'll throw at you and when and what their patterns are.

And the music needs to be like separated from that, just try to throw the player off balance so that they can't tie. Okay. He's going to like pop out of the ground and shoot these 12 fireballs in this direction with, okay, we're on the, like, like they're not counting for four.

**Stemage:** Right, exactly. You can't, yeah.

You can't count along with the music. Try to figure out what to do. That makes a lot of sense. Yeah. Wild

**Morgan:** things to consider. Yeah. There are other

**Stemage:** things like, um, like just the absence of music. I remember hearing that after a boss is done, after you beat a boss, um, let's go silent, no music. And it's this moment of like, as a player, you go, you know, I guess I'm done here.

I mean, like, I guess it's time to leave. It's been done since the early days. Like it was done in Nintendo games too, but just absolute silence is a clear indication that you are done. It's time to move on, grab the heart piece, move on. There's nothing to see here. Like when a bar turns on the

**Morgan:** lights. Yeah, no,

**Stemage:** yes.

Cause you're getting, you're getting the lights flashed at you. Exactly. So there's all kinds of tricks like that for, for, um, You know, helping communicate with the player or not. Um, but it's all, I don't, you know, and I think a lot of people have found some, some, some interesting tricks with that, but I also feel like it is very much an art in itself.

Um, and it's, it's, uh, it's difficult. I feel like people who get started in this space tend to just write songs, and you can start with a song. I heard your interview from a couple weeks ago about the songs versus, what was it? Songs versus,

it was the idea of songs. Anyway, I feel like there's a difference between composing for a, for, for something, uh, like, uh, for a piece, either whether, whether it's linear or not, whether it's songwriting

**Morgan:** versus composing.

**Stemage:** Yes. Totally. A songwriter versus composing. Um, but start with a song.

That's great. That's, that's your baseline, but then you need to take it and you need to desongify it and figure out what makes sense to get that verse chorus verse out of here, because it's time you don't want it to be familiar unless it is a music video moment.

**Morgan:** Um, it needs

**Stemage:** to, it needs to not have that same kind of, uh, that same kind of thing.

And you know, that's for, that's for the soundtrack later. You can go back and songify it for the soundtrack later. But for now, uh, I don't know, you might need something different there. Yeah.

**Morgan:** Oh man, Stemmon, we could obviously talk for a long time about this. We might have to have you back.

**Stemage:** Oh yeah, it is fun.

I love talking about this stuff. That's why, that's why I told you I, and it's fun, um, seeing how much things have changed sort of in this, in this scene. And I just, it's fun to, it's fun to, um, deconstruct. Yeah.

**Morgan:** Well, I want to end, um, I, I ask every guest this at the end of the episode.

Um, what is a recent or a memorable zeitgeist moment for you? Now zeitgeist means spirit of the times, right? It's kind of that thing. feeling of what it's like to be alive at any particular point in time. And I apply this not only just large, broad culturally, but also in these, like in these scenes, like the scene, the feeling of like the zeitgeist of magwest is different from like, you know, you go to an orchestra concert.

It's, it's like a different feeling people are there for different reasons. Different languages, um, musical languages. So a zeitgeist moment is, is that music we all kind of strive for as musicians when you're, or, or just enthusiasts, um, when you're listening or playing or somehow engaged with music and you just click into that scene and it like, you kind of feel like you're part of something bigger than yourself.

So I'll ask you what is either a recent or a particularly memorable zeitgeist moment for you? And while you're thinking of that, I'll share one with you. Um, when I was in college, my, uh, choir director, I was a choir kid, still am a choir kid, and my choir director got the opportunity somehow to do a Final Fantasy concert.

And this was, um, the Final Fantasy was on tour. Uh, basically they, they do this a lot. I've since done Final Fantasy again and Zelda. This was the first I'd ever heard of this type of thing. 20 years ago. Um, the, the conductor and some of the key people from Japan put together this world tour. They'd hire local orchestras.

I believe they had some key players who went with them. And then they would hire out local orchestras and bring in local choirs and do this whole production with a big screen. They're playing shots of the game and it was like medley medley medley medley medley over all these different games. And, um, I had never played Final Fantasy didn't know anything about it.

And, , uh, one winged angel, you know, for, for those of you who, who play final fantasy, it's like that big Sephiroth, um, theme song. It's,, I just remember like our friend, like we dissected this, like me and my other, you know, music major friends dissected this because the, there actually are words to it.

There's not in the game, but when they did it There's words. And it's like, Fake latin. It's not real latin, but but it's like they use little pieces that actually like evoke Latin emo it's like a dies irae in um in choral music is like a day of wrath It's from the like the requiem the biblical setting of day of wrath armageddon kind of thing and um, and this This piece was so driving and fiery and I'm like, okay, I have to learn what's going on here.

And I, I, it kind of led me down this rabbit hole because there was such power behind that particular piece for me. Um, so I didn't have the ability to play the game myself, but I, I liked it. I went full research mode and I was like, okay, tell me about this because it's clear that there's a story here. And so I kind of got the storytelling aspect of it from my friends.

Um, and it was just such a memorable, I had never encountered music in that way. And I, I realized that the Zeitgeist moment was plugging into this whole, like I realized how much emotion can be packed into, um, a video game, really. I had never played any story based video games, just kind of simple platformers that I didn't see any story necessarily.

But, um, the. The power of the storytelling coming through the music through this one piece that was just so fun to sing and then Connecting it was just so thought through it was connected to this stuff that that I was studying classically that was my first real merge between Video games and classical music at least

**Stemage:** I love it because that song has been here that It's like the, it's like the song sort of appeared out of nowhere for you.

It's like, it's so big and grand. You should have heard of it. Right? Like, it's like, why have I never heard this before? Cause it's so big and so monstrous.

**Morgan:** Yeah.

**Stemage:** Uh, it turns out it was there the whole time. It was just in this really ugly old final fantasy game. Yeah. That's awesome.

**Morgan:** So, yeah, that, that was a moment for me that I wanted to share with you.

I'd love to hear. Uh, a recent or memorable psychist

**Stemage:** I could, I guess, performance count? Like a live performance thing? Anything, absolutely

**Morgan:** performance count. It was

**Stemage:** this, you know, one of the craziest onstage moments I've ever had was this past year. It was at the VGMCon event in Minneapolis, and I have a friend named Theology.

So he goes by Theology, his name's Matt. And he's a DJ, he's a video game DJ. And he plays like, really fun, super danceable. Not nothing out there. No, not noisy, just feel good video game, dance music. And he, we, he wanted to do a song with me months prior. And we, we whipped up the, uh, he did an arrangement of something from secret of mana, which is a soundtrack I really enjoy.

And I did a big guitar thing for it and then rhythm guitar stuff. And so he was playing VGM con and invited me to, to play with him on stage. And I've never really done anything with. electronic music live before. Um, it's, I, my metal shows, there's two different people, types of people in the crowd. There's the people that are losing their mind and running around or whatever and bobbing their heads.

And then there are the people that are standing by the, by the sound booth with their arms crossed, like, like they're jamming in their brains, but they haven't let me get to get to their body. Cause I'm that guy too. Like I'll, I have a friend who always makes fun of me for like hanging out, listening to the math, you know, back at the booth.

But this was. This was an experience. He came out and he's all about positivity. He's writing on his laptop and putting cool messages about how you're good enough on the screen during all the songs. It's very feel good show before the show, he comes down and thanks everybody for, for, for being there. And has everybody do box breathing together for a few seconds?

And he gets back on stage and then drops the beat. I came out and played. And, and when the beat dropped on the song I was playing, I've never seen a room. On fire before it was everyone was jumping. Everyone was so happy It wasn't that like angry metal happy. It was just like blissful And I was I could barely Perform, but I did pull it off and it was great.

And it was an absolute moment in that room. And I've never experienced anything like that. And I've played a lot of shows, but it was just incredible. Uh, it felt, it was so big, but it also felt intimate, felt like something that everybody was kind of experiencing together at that time. So that's definitely like my all time favorite stage moment.

**Morgan:** Uh, yeah, that's a, that's an awesome one is what we live for. Right? Yeah,

**Stemage:** absolutely. Yeah, definitely.

**Morgan:** Awesome. Well, Stemmich, thank you so much for coming on my podcast.

**Stemage:** Yeah, of course. It's a pleasure.

Thanks for tuning in to this episode of Zeitgeist Radio. If you'd like to take the next step in your musical journey, head over to zeitgeistacademy. com slash radio to join my newsletter. Seriously. It's fun and informative, and I never spam or sell your information. That's zeitgeistacademy. com slash radio.

Music for this episode was created by Ian Boswell. Please hit that subscribe button and tell all your friends you found a cool new podcast. See you next time.